Discussion:
fedora-devel-list Digest, Vol 12, Issue 86
(too old to reply)
Martin Sevior
2005-02-28 01:46:51 UTC
Permalink
So with these removed from Core I assume they are going to be in Extras.
Correct? In Extras will they continue to be maintained as before or will
they need someone to step up and maintain them? The reason I ask is it
would be a pity to see abiword and gnumeric disappear as I find them
considerably faster than OOo and in the case of Abiword it supports a
number of word files that don't work to well with OOo.I also use grip.
While I'm happy for them to be in extras rather than core I would still
like them to be around.
The plan is to add these packages to Extras as demand requires. Volunteers
are always wanted to help maintain packages. Are you interested? Please
see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras_2fCvsAccess
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.

Maybe we should just stick with source and Debian.

I've been seriously thinking of moving to Ubuntu anyway.

Well I guess that's just about it for FC as a community distro.

Martin Sevior

Core AbiWord Developer.

Hint type "word Processor" into google and see what you get. It isn't either
MS Word or OOo
Michael A. Peters
2005-02-28 03:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
Maybe we should just stick with source and Debian.
I've been seriously thinking of moving to Ubuntu anyway.
Well I guess that's just about it for FC as a community distro.
Martin Sevior
Core AbiWord Developer.
As someone is an absolutely huge fan of AbiWord, and as a member of the
Fedora "community" as a user and not a @hat address, I would like to
comment on this.

The problem as I see it is that Fedora Core is getting too big with too
much duplicated functionallity. The Fedora Extas infrastructure now
exists as a place where alternative packages can still be maintained
and developed that integrate tightly with Fedora Core, and with quality
control - by the very community that uses them.

I see that as a good thing, it is a lot easier to get Fedora to the
public if it is smaller to download, cheaper to burn (less CD's), etc.

A lot of the popularity of Ubuntu is that it is a small distro - not a
lot of CD's.

If I had my way, OO.o and Evolution would go to extras and AbiWord/
Gnumeric/Balsa/Pan would be in Core - but the user community uses OO.o
and Evolution, those apps are more popular.

That doesn't mean AbiWord/Gnumeric/Balsa etc. shouldn't be available,
but it does mean that currently they are downloaded for every CD/DVD
install and usually never installed by the users. By moving them into
Extras, they are still there for people who do want to use them, but
Core is a smaller download for the majority who do not.

Abiword, Gnumeric, and GStreamer are my personal favorite OSS projects.
It is sad imho to see the first two going out of core, but I think it
needs to done, at least until people figure out that OO.o is too slow
and bloated with too high maintenance to be worth it. OO.o had
excellent marketing - that's what gave it momentum, it will (I think)
die down (especially now that Windows AbiWord and OS X AbiWord are
starting to take shape)

This may actually be a good thing for AbiWord - since it is going to be
in Extras, and you guys already build rpm's for FC, perhaps someone
from AbiWord could become the Extras maintainer for it, ensuring the
quality of the product available through yum for Fedora Core users.

I'm not on AbiWord devel list, but maybe someone there wants to do
that.
--
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 03:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
On the contrary -- you're already maintaining RPMs, so why not maintain them
as part of Extras? This could be a significant improvement.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Martin Sevior
2005-02-28 06:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
On the contrary -- you're already maintaining RPMs, so why not maintain them
as part of Extras? This could be a significant improvement.
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.

My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.

It appears pretty disingenuous though for the largest Linux company with
around $1,000,000,000 in the bank and profits growing by 50% per year to
reduce their level of support for us. I don't feel much loyality to FC
or RedHat anymore.

That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.

Martin
seth vidal
2005-02-28 07:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
just one point. When fc3 was released extras was not available. When fc4
is released extras will be available.
It will also be included an enabled in the default yum.repos.d files.

so then a user running:
yum install abiword

will just get it. No searching, no groping about, it's just there.

-sv

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Demond James
2005-02-28 14:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by seth vidal
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
just one point. When fc3 was released extras was not available. When
fc4 is released extras will be available.
It will also be included an enabled in the default yum.repos.d files.
yum install abiword
will just get it. No searching, no groping about, it's just there.
-sv
To add one more point, starting with FC5 the user will be able to
install AbiWord when through anaconda if it's maintained in FE. The way
I'm thinking is that the FE packages will show up in the package
selection list, hopefully that's how it will be implemented.

It would definitely be great if the FC rpm maintainer at AbiWord could
submit that same package to Fedora Extras and maintain it there.
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Demond James
2005-02-28 14:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by seth vidal
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
just one point. When fc3 was released extras was not available. When
fc4 is released extras will be available.
It will also be included an enabled in the default yum.repos.d files.
yum install abiword
will just get it. No searching, no groping about, it's just there.
-sv
To add one more point, starting with FC5 the user will be able to
install AbiWord when through anaconda if it's maintained in FE. The way
I'm thinking is that the FE packages will show up in the package
selection list, hopefully that's how it will be implemented.

It would definitely be great if the FC rpm maintainer at AbiWord could
submit that same package to Fedora Extras and maintain it there.
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Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 14:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
This won't be the case soon. It may take until FC5, though, so have some
patience
Post by Martin Sevior
My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.
Extras is just getting started, so it's not fair to make your judgement
based on experience so far. FC4 extras will be available with the release,
and yum-enabled. FC5 extras will, hopefully, be pickable right in the
installer.
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
msevior
2005-02-28 15:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
This won't be the case soon. It may take until FC5, though, so have some
patience
Post by Martin Sevior
My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.
Extras is just getting started, so it's not fair to make your judgement
based on experience so far. FC4 extras will be available with the release,
and yum-enabled. FC5 extras will, hopefully, be pickable right in the
installer.
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff. Ordinary users
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
Well it appears my good friend and fellow developer Marc Maurer has
stepped up to the job of maintaining AbiWord in Extras so FCE will get
great AbiWord packages right after releases.

What do we have to do to get back into core?

Martin
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 15:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff. Ordinary users
Some of it will be.
Post by msevior
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
I don't think any office apps should be in Core.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Rahul Sundaram
2005-02-28 16:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.

Ordinary users
Post by msevior
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
not true. extras is made up of other people. I am pushing for fc core
to just be a single cd or two. that can only happen with anaconda
getting support for other repos. meanwhile yum install abiword will
install it since fc4 will have extras repo enabled by default. so its
not hard to do.
Post by msevior
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
Well it appears my good friend and fellow developer Marc Maurer has
stepped up to the job of maintaining AbiWord in Extras so FCE will get
great AbiWord packages right after releases.
What do we have to do to get back into core?
Martin
propose it in the fedora extras list.
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-28 22:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by msevior
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
not true. extras is made up of other people. I am pushing for fc core
Since it just happened twice in a row, I thought I'd point out that fc
core is a misnomer. Fedora is the name of the distro, and it now has
two existing components: Core and Extras. Core is what Red Hat
maintains; Extras is what the community maintains. Unfortunately, the
Core installer still can't get packages from Extras installed, and
most likely won't before FC5.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by msevior
What do we have to do to get back into core?
propose it in the fedora extras list.
This wouldn't get it into Core. It would get it into Extras, which,
by FC5's time-frame, would be nearly equivalent. For FC4, it means
you won't be able to get it at install time, and a post-install step
would be required to bring it in. Not a big deal if you're privileged
enough to have a fat net pipe on your Fedora-running box.
--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Alexandre Oliva
2005-02-28 22:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by msevior
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
not true. extras is made up of other people. I am pushing for fc core
Since it just happened twice in a row, I thought I'd point out that fc
core is a misnomer. Fedora is the name of the distro, and it now has
two existing components: Core and Extras. Core is what Red Hat
maintains; Extras is what the community maintains. Unfortunately, the
Core installer still can't get packages from Extras installed, and
most likely won't before FC5.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by msevior
What do we have to do to get back into core?
propose it in the fedora extras list.
This wouldn't get it into Core. It would get it into Extras, which,
by FC5's time-frame, would be nearly equivalent. For FC4, it means
you won't be able to get it at install time, and a post-install step
would be required to bring it in. Not a big deal if you're privileged
enough to have a fat net pipe on your Fedora-running box.
--
Alexandre Oliva http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/
Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org}
Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org}
Michael A. Peters
2005-03-01 04:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by msevior
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff
placed
in
Post by msevior
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.
I think most Java stuff belongs in JPackage.org - and that JPackage.org
should have a repo file in default install. That may not happen because
RH does not have oversight of JPackage.org - but I do think that is the
best way to do java. A JRE with browser plugin in core though I think
would be the right thing, but everything else Java, it really should
(imho) leverage the JPackage "package ecosystem", which really rocks.
--
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/
Nicolas Mailhot
2005-03-01 09:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Peters
Post by msevior
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff
placed
in
Post by msevior
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.
I think most Java stuff belongs in JPackage.org - and that JPackage.org
should have a repo file in default install. That may not happen because
RH does not have oversight of JPackage.org - but I do think that is the
best way to do java. A JRE with browser plugin in core though I think
would be the right thing, but everything else Java, it really should
(imho) leverage the JPackage "package ecosystem", which really rocks.
I can tell you Red Hat can influence pretty heavily JPackage right now, if
only because some of the most active contributors these days are @hat
people (Suse/Novell & Mandrake are welcome too but so far they've
committed far less resources than RH).

Now due the way JPP is organised we're very good for stuff that is
distro-independant but very bad for stuff like native builds that must be
rebuilt separately for each distros (just consider the time it took for FE
to get its build infrastructure in place, and it had the backing of a real
corp behind).

So for now we need Fedora so gcj/native builds can be tried and take off.
JPP's contribution is more a pool of noarch packages and a place were rpm
distros can try to sync a bit than a full FOSS ready-to-use java
repository.

Regards,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
Nicolas Mailhot
2005-03-01 09:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael A. Peters
Post by msevior
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff
placed
in
Post by msevior
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.
I think most Java stuff belongs in JPackage.org - and that JPackage.org
should have a repo file in default install. That may not happen because
RH does not have oversight of JPackage.org - but I do think that is the
best way to do java. A JRE with browser plugin in core though I think
would be the right thing, but everything else Java, it really should
(imho) leverage the JPackage "package ecosystem", which really rocks.
I can tell you Red Hat can influence pretty heavily JPackage right now, if
only because some of the most active contributors these days are @hat
people (Suse/Novell & Mandrake are welcome too but so far they've
committed far less resources than RH).

Now due the way JPP is organised we're very good for stuff that is
distro-independant but very bad for stuff like native builds that must be
rebuilt separately for each distros (just consider the time it took for FE
to get its build infrastructure in place, and it had the backing of a real
corp behind).

So for now we need Fedora so gcj/native builds can be tried and take off.
JPP's contribution is more a pool of noarch packages and a place were rpm
distros can try to sync a bit than a full FOSS ready-to-use java
repository.

Regards,
--
Nicolas Mailhot
Michael A. Peters
2005-03-01 04:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by msevior
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff
placed
in
Post by msevior
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.
I think most Java stuff belongs in JPackage.org - and that JPackage.org
should have a repo file in default install. That may not happen because
RH does not have oversight of JPackage.org - but I do think that is the
best way to do java. A JRE with browser plugin in core though I think
would be the right thing, but everything else Java, it really should
(imho) leverage the JPackage "package ecosystem", which really rocks.
--
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 15:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff. Ordinary users
Some of it will be.
Post by msevior
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
I don't think any office apps should be in Core.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Rahul Sundaram
2005-02-28 16:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi
Post by msevior
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff.
I believe the reason for this was already discussed in this list.
basically this is the first time Free java has become good enough to
be shipped with a distro and since fedora developers did the major
work in bringing it up to this point they want to push it better.

Ordinary users
Post by msevior
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
not true. extras is made up of other people. I am pushing for fc core
to just be a single cd or two. that can only happen with anaconda
getting support for other repos. meanwhile yum install abiword will
install it since fc4 will have extras repo enabled by default. so its
not hard to do.
Post by msevior
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
Well it appears my good friend and fellow developer Marc Maurer has
stepped up to the job of maintaining AbiWord in Extras so FCE will get
great AbiWord packages right after releases.
What do we have to do to get back into core?
Martin
propose it in the fedora extras list.
--
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram
msevior
2005-02-28 15:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
This won't be the case soon. It may take until FC5, though, so have some
patience
Post by Martin Sevior
My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.
Extras is just getting started, so it's not fair to make your judgement
based on experience so far. FC4 extras will be available with the release,
and yum-enabled. FC5 extras will, hopefully, be pickable right in the
installer.
Well if it's so great why isn't all the java and server stuff placed in
Extras? Developers and sys-admins know how to find stuff. Ordinary users
(abiword's target market) are less inclined. I know RH big enterprise
users pay the bills but I'd rather naively bought into the idea that FC
was about building community with grass roots projects. Now it appears you
have to have a substantial group of people on a payroll to get into FC
core.
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
Well it appears my good friend and fellow developer Marc Maurer has
stepped up to the job of maintaining AbiWord in Extras so FCE will get
great AbiWord packages right after releases.

What do we have to do to get back into core?

Martin
Jeff Spaleta
2005-02-28 14:28:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:36:00 +1100, Martin Sevior
Post by Martin Sevior
I don't feel much loyality to FC
or RedHat anymore.
That's unfortunate, especially since we are now seeing public facing
progress in Extras and the newly established contributor process in
place. If there is nothing that can be said to encourage you to take
a constructive role in the evolving contributor process during its
critical initial stages, then please, check back from time to time as
the process matures and Core evolves accordingly.

The situation we are in now.. with the inclusion of java is a rather
extradinary event, and I dare say would have lead to similar packaging
decisions by Red Hat if it happened in the rhl timeframe. We can
either agree with the decision and the constraints or we disagree..
but please lets not imply malice in the decision-making. I hope you
check back into the process in the fc5 timeframe when the discussion
to make Core drastically smaller takes on much more weight if the
anaconda development plan holds true to expected timeframe for repo
support.

If it wasn't clear before... I'll repeat it. I'm pretty sure everyone
with a stake in the race hoped to get Extras up on its feet quicker.
And for whomever I'm allowed to speak for, I apologize for it taking
this long. But now that its here, everyone has a choice to make to be
involved or not. Core is going to get smaller, Extras is going to
take on more weight through the next few releases... in an
evolutionary way. The end result will not look exactly like ubuntu,
but things are going to move somewhat into that direction which means
a non-trivial number of packages is going to move out of Core into
Extras over time.. and Extras will take on more importance as a
result. We can't snap our fingers and make that happen overnight. And
its far more constructive to focus on thinking and working about how
Extras needs to operate in an fc6 timescale than to continue to morn
decisions Red Hat has already made.

-jef"No one in the sum total of human history has ever felt a deeper
rage than what I felt when oneko was ripped out of rhl. I fell into a
darkness, deep and bottomless. I wandered the earth, lost and forlorn
searching for meaning. I swore an oath to seek my revenge on those who
have hurt me so. I have fought a daily struggle to break open the Red
gates so that I have can get oneko back into distribution. And now
that Fedora Extras is finally here and my goal is at hand, its not so
compelling anymore cuz xdesktopwaves is sooo much cooler."spaleta
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 16:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Spaleta
-jef"No one in the sum total of human history has ever felt a deeper
rage than what I felt when oneko was ripped out of rhl. I fell into a
darkness, deep and bottomless. I wandered the earth, lost and forlorn
searching for meaning. I swore an oath to seek my revenge on those who
have hurt me so. I have fought a daily struggle to break open the Red
gates so that I have can get oneko back into distribution. And now
that Fedora Extras is finally here and my goal is at hand, its not so
compelling anymore cuz xdesktopwaves is sooo much cooler."spaleta
I have an oneko RPM we could add to extras if you want.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 16:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Spaleta
-jef"No one in the sum total of human history has ever felt a deeper
rage than what I felt when oneko was ripped out of rhl. I fell into a
darkness, deep and bottomless. I wandered the earth, lost and forlorn
searching for meaning. I swore an oath to seek my revenge on those who
have hurt me so. I have fought a daily struggle to break open the Red
gates so that I have can get oneko back into distribution. And now
that Fedora Extras is finally here and my goal is at hand, its not so
compelling anymore cuz xdesktopwaves is sooo much cooler."spaleta
I have an oneko RPM we could add to extras if you want.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
seth vidal
2005-02-28 07:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
just one point. When fc3 was released extras was not available. When fc4
is released extras will be available.
It will also be included an enabled in the default yum.repos.d files.

so then a user running:
yum install abiword

will just get it. No searching, no groping about, it's just there.

-sv

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Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 14:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.
This won't be the case soon. It may take until FC5, though, so have some
patience
Post by Martin Sevior
My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.
Extras is just getting started, so it's not fair to make your judgement
based on experience so far. FC4 extras will be available with the release,
and yum-enabled. FC5 extras will, hopefully, be pickable right in the
installer.
Post by Martin Sevior
That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.
I thought you said you were already maintaining FC rpms. What am I missing
here?
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
Jeff Spaleta
2005-02-28 14:28:54 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:36:00 +1100, Martin Sevior
Post by Martin Sevior
I don't feel much loyality to FC
or RedHat anymore.
That's unfortunate, especially since we are now seeing public facing
progress in Extras and the newly established contributor process in
place. If there is nothing that can be said to encourage you to take
a constructive role in the evolving contributor process during its
critical initial stages, then please, check back from time to time as
the process matures and Core evolves accordingly.

The situation we are in now.. with the inclusion of java is a rather
extradinary event, and I dare say would have lead to similar packaging
decisions by Red Hat if it happened in the rhl timeframe. We can
either agree with the decision and the constraints or we disagree..
but please lets not imply malice in the decision-making. I hope you
check back into the process in the fc5 timeframe when the discussion
to make Core drastically smaller takes on much more weight if the
anaconda development plan holds true to expected timeframe for repo
support.

If it wasn't clear before... I'll repeat it. I'm pretty sure everyone
with a stake in the race hoped to get Extras up on its feet quicker.
And for whomever I'm allowed to speak for, I apologize for it taking
this long. But now that its here, everyone has a choice to make to be
involved or not. Core is going to get smaller, Extras is going to
take on more weight through the next few releases... in an
evolutionary way. The end result will not look exactly like ubuntu,
but things are going to move somewhat into that direction which means
a non-trivial number of packages is going to move out of Core into
Extras over time.. and Extras will take on more importance as a
result. We can't snap our fingers and make that happen overnight. And
its far more constructive to focus on thinking and working about how
Extras needs to operate in an fc6 timescale than to continue to morn
decisions Red Hat has already made.

-jef"No one in the sum total of human history has ever felt a deeper
rage than what I felt when oneko was ripped out of rhl. I fell into a
darkness, deep and bottomless. I wandered the earth, lost and forlorn
searching for meaning. I swore an oath to seek my revenge on those who
have hurt me so. I have fought a daily struggle to break open the Red
gates so that I have can get oneko back into distribution. And now
that Fedora Extras is finally here and my goal is at hand, its not so
compelling anymore cuz xdesktopwaves is sooo much cooler."spaleta
Martin Sevior
2005-02-28 06:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Miller
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
On the contrary -- you're already maintaining RPMs, so why not maintain them
as part of Extras? This could be a significant improvement.
Look as Mike Peters has pointed out we're already being beaten up by SUN
marketing. Putting us into Extras makes it an order of magnitude harder
for people to find us, so spare me the double-think.

My personal experience of Fedora-Extras has been very negative so far.
It took months for FC3 extras to appear after FC-core.

It appears pretty disingenuous though for the largest Linux company with
around $1,000,000,000 in the bank and profits growing by 50% per year to
reduce their level of support for us. I don't feel much loyality to FC
or RedHat anymore.

That said, we want to make our software as widely available as possible.
If someone from the FC community wants to maintain AbiWord for FC-Extras
we'd love to hear from them.

Martin
Martin Sevior
2005-02-28 01:46:51 UTC
Permalink
So with these removed from Core I assume they are going to be in Extras.
Correct? In Extras will they continue to be maintained as before or will
they need someone to step up and maintain them? The reason I ask is it
would be a pity to see abiword and gnumeric disappear as I find them
considerably faster than OOo and in the case of Abiword it supports a
number of word files that don't work to well with OOo.I also use grip.
While I'm happy for them to be in extras rather than core I would still
like them to be around.
The plan is to add these packages to Extras as demand requires. Volunteers
are always wanted to help maintain packages. Are you interested? Please
see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras_2fCvsAccess
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.

Maybe we should just stick with source and Debian.

I've been seriously thinking of moving to Ubuntu anyway.

Well I guess that's just about it for FC as a community distro.

Martin Sevior

Core AbiWord Developer.

Hint type "word Processor" into google and see what you get. It isn't either
MS Word or OOo
Michael A. Peters
2005-02-28 03:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
Maybe we should just stick with source and Debian.
I've been seriously thinking of moving to Ubuntu anyway.
Well I guess that's just about it for FC as a community distro.
Martin Sevior
Core AbiWord Developer.
As someone is an absolutely huge fan of AbiWord, and as a member of the
Fedora "community" as a user and not a @hat address, I would like to
comment on this.

The problem as I see it is that Fedora Core is getting too big with too
much duplicated functionallity. The Fedora Extas infrastructure now
exists as a place where alternative packages can still be maintained
and developed that integrate tightly with Fedora Core, and with quality
control - by the very community that uses them.

I see that as a good thing, it is a lot easier to get Fedora to the
public if it is smaller to download, cheaper to burn (less CD's), etc.

A lot of the popularity of Ubuntu is that it is a small distro - not a
lot of CD's.

If I had my way, OO.o and Evolution would go to extras and AbiWord/
Gnumeric/Balsa/Pan would be in Core - but the user community uses OO.o
and Evolution, those apps are more popular.

That doesn't mean AbiWord/Gnumeric/Balsa etc. shouldn't be available,
but it does mean that currently they are downloaded for every CD/DVD
install and usually never installed by the users. By moving them into
Extras, they are still there for people who do want to use them, but
Core is a smaller download for the majority who do not.

Abiword, Gnumeric, and GStreamer are my personal favorite OSS projects.
It is sad imho to see the first two going out of core, but I think it
needs to done, at least until people figure out that OO.o is too slow
and bloated with too high maintenance to be worth it. OO.o had
excellent marketing - that's what gave it momentum, it will (I think)
die down (especially now that Windows AbiWord and OS X AbiWord are
starting to take shape)

This may actually be a good thing for AbiWord - since it is going to be
in Extras, and you guys already build rpm's for FC, perhaps someone
from AbiWord could become the Extras maintainer for it, ensuring the
quality of the product available through yum for Fedora Core users.

I'm not on AbiWord devel list, but maybe someone there wants to do
that.
--
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/
Matthew Miller
2005-02-28 03:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Sevior
How sad. We constantly push the envolope, fix bugs, provide upgrades and
provide rpm's for stable and development version of our program for
FC3, FC2, FC1 and redhat 9 on our website.
On the contrary -- you're already maintaining RPMs, so why not maintain them
as part of Extras? This could be a significant improvement.
--
Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org <http://www.mattdm.org/>
Boston University Linux ------> <http://linux.bu.edu/>
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