Discussion:
too many deamons by default - F7 test 2 live cd
(too old to reply)
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 09:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Been fiddling with a installation of Fedora 7 Test 2 from the Live CD
and it still enables way too may daemons by default. The following
deserve special mention.

Hardware specific - Bluetooth (along with hidd), cups (FC6 even had
smartcard daemon by default). Should check and enable on demand

Definitely superfluous - firstboot, livecd. Should disable after first
run completely or even remove the packages.

Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.

Default? - Possibly NetworkManagerDispatcher since
NetworkManager is enabled by default

Exim should probably replaced with something like esmtp or ssmtp in the
live cd. Folks wanting to install a full blown MTA can install sendmail,
postfix or email on their own.

Comments?
Oliver Falk
2007-03-19 10:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi Rahul!
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Been fiddling with a installation of Fedora 7 Test 2 from the Live CD
and it still enables way too may daemons by default. The following
deserve special mention.
Hardware specific - Bluetooth (along with hidd), cups (FC6 even had
smartcard daemon by default). Should check and enable on demand
Hm. Sounds good, shouldn't be enabled by default; Not only on the LiveCD...
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Definitely superfluous - firstboot, livecd. Should disable after first
run completely or even remove the packages.
Extra - cpuspeed.
This one makes sense on laptops, doesn't it? I wouldn't disable that
one. Or only if there's some way to check if the cpu supports it or not.
If not I wouldn't even install it.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
mdmonitor, netfs
Yes, also think these shouldn't be enabled; Or installed...
Post by Rahul Sundaram
ntpd,
I would let this one. Time synchronization makes sense.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
portmap. Can't see a reason to enable these by default.
Maybe.

[ ... ]

Just my 2 cent...

-of
Nigel Metheringham
2007-03-19 10:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Falk
ntpd,
I would let this one. Time synchronization makes sense.
We could use something slimmer than the full ntpd - a client only (s)
ntp implementation, say. Maybe openntpd.

Nigel.
--
[ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham at InTechnology.co.uk ]
[ - Comments in this message are my own and not ITO opinion/policy - ]
Thorsten Leemhuis
2007-03-19 10:51:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Falk
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed.
This one makes sense on laptops, doesn't it?
It makes also much sense on Desktops -- nearly all modern Desktop-CPUs
and also a lot of Server-CPUs support some kind power-saving features.
It IMHO would be wise to use them so save power and keeps systems cool
(and quiet -- I don't want to hear people saying "my System is much
louder when I use the Fedora Live-CD").

CU
thl
Oliver Falk
2007-03-19 10:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thorsten Leemhuis
Post by Oliver Falk
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed.
This one makes sense on laptops, doesn't it?
It makes also much sense on Desktops -- nearly all modern Desktop-CPUs
and also a lot of Server-CPUs support some kind power-saving features.
It IMHO would be wise to use them so save power and keeps systems cool
(and quiet -- I don't want to hear people saying "my System is much
louder when I use the Fedora Live-CD").
Yes, OK, but installing/starting cpuspeed on a computer that actually
doesn't support it doesn't make sense. Right? :-)

-of
Nicolas Mailhot
2007-03-19 10:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager

Daemon number is a red herring. A gigantic do-it-all daemon is worse than
a set of small well-defined services. cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are
definitively not the ones who should be axed first - they're small, proven
and without side-effects (unlike others)
--
Nicolas Mailhot
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 10:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Daemon number is a red herring. A gigantic do-it-all daemon is worse than
a set of small well-defined services. cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are
definitively not the ones who should be axed first - they're small, proven
and without side-effects (unlike others)
Unless there is any do-it-all daemon enabled by default this is
irrelevant. There are side effects for all daemons - slower performance,
potential higher security risks etc. The less the better.

Rahul
Nicolas Mailhot
2007-03-19 10:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
Bzzt. Lots of things on the desktop require a working clock (try to unsync
yours and watch havoc breaking loose), cpuspeed is a requirement on
laptops and nice-to-have on every recent desktop system (a hot mobo is a
loud mobo, people like hearing their ogg files too), and killing mdadm
removes access to parts of the disks (md is used on desktops, and live cds
are used on systems with a linux version on disc)
Post by Rahul Sundaram
here are side effects for all daemons - slower performance,
potential higher security risks etc. The less the better.
The same arguments applies to every app exposed to external files, and
you'll win more killing bad evo/firefox/openoffice code. (also all the
GUI-oriented daemons you "forget" in your analysis have youth problems the
daemons you target have not).

Granted it's easier to kill some daemons than work of GUI bloat, but
you're rewarding bad intermingled code and penalising small dedicated
audited components there.
--
Nicolas Mailhot
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 10:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
Bzzt. Lots of things on the desktop require a working clock (try to unsync
yours and watch havoc breaking loose)
Working clock is a requirement. Not ntpd. There is a difference.

, cpuspeed is a requirement on
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
laptops and nice-to-have on every recent desktop system (a hot mobo is a
loud mobo, people like hearing their ogg files too)
They are not required to be enabled on every system. Only on laptops.

, and killing mdadm
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
removes access to parts of the disks (md is used on desktops, and live cds
are used on systems with a linux version on disc)
Remember that Live CD dont support upgrades. You can only target first
time user's with them as of now.

Rahul
Florian La Roche
2007-03-19 10:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
We should really target a Live-DVD instead of a Live-CD.

regards,

Florian La Roche
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 10:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Florian La Roche
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
We should really target a Live-DVD instead of a Live-CD.
DVD drives are way too costly in many regions. We still need a Live CD.

Rahul
Ralf Corsepius
2007-03-19 10:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Florian La Roche
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
We should really target a Live-DVD instead of a Live-CD.
DVD drives are way too costly in many regions. We still need a Live CD.
Pardon, but I would not recommend Fedora to anybody who doesn't have
broadband access. Those who have broadband access also very likely have
a DVD drive.

Also: Do you know how Ubuntu and Knoppix are being shipped in Germany.
As free add-ons to magazines.

Ralf
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 11:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Florian La Roche
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
We should really target a Live-DVD instead of a Live-CD.
DVD drives are way too costly in many regions. We still need a Live CD.
Pardon, but I would not recommend Fedora to anybody who doesn't have
broadband access. Those who have broadband access also very likely have
a DVD drive
Can you specify the factors for your recommendation? Live CD's can be
installed to a hard disk and works out of the box. That doesnt require
any broadband connection. Broad connection does not automatically
translate into systems with DVD. Many work places have restrictions on
removable disk access (No CD/DVD drivers, USB ports locked etc).
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Also: Do you know how Ubuntu and Knoppix are being shipped in Germany.
As free add-ons to magazines
Fedora is included in magazines all over the world too. Does not change
the fact that Live CD are still very much a good thing for several end
users and for promotional events.

Rahul

Josh Boyer
2007-03-19 10:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Nicolas Mailhot
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap. Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
cpuspeed, mdmonitor and ntpd are no more extra than NetworkManager
Yes, They are. For a desktop. A Live CD is targeted at the desktop.
Nothing else.
cpuspeed is very useful, especially in the case of a laptop which
several people use as their desktop. Your narrow definition of a
desktop is perhaps too limiting.

josh
Ralf Corsepius
2007-03-19 10:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Hi
Been fiddling with a installation of Fedora 7 Test 2 from the Live CD
and it still enables way too may daemons by default. The following
deserve special mention.
Hardware specific - Bluetooth (along with hidd), cups (FC6 even had
smartcard daemon by default). Should check and enable on demand
Definitely superfluous - firstboot, livecd. Should disable after first
run completely or even remove the packages.
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap.
No portmap => no nis, no nfs, no rpc.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Can't see a reason to
enable these by default.
Default? - Possibly NetworkManagerDispatcher since
NetworkManager is enabled by default
Disable this. It has never worked for me anywhere and is the first
daemon I disable after FC installs.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Exim should probably replaced with something like esmtp or ssmtp in the
live cd. Folks wanting to install a full blown MTA can install sendmail,
postfix or email on their own.
Comments?
You are scratching on the surface of a weak spot in Fedora.

Ralf
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 10:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap.
No portmap => no nis, no nfs, no rpc.
Again, This live CD is meant for a desktop. You can always enable it if
you need it.
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Default? - Possibly NetworkManagerDispatcher since
NetworkManager is enabled by default
Disable this. It has never worked for me anywhere and is the first
daemon I disable after FC installs.
You will have to look beyond just your personal consideration. It works
for me. Bug reports?
Post by Ralf Corsepius
You are scratching on the surface of a weak spot in Fedora.
I checked all the daemons and listing the ones find I found
unnecessarily enabled for a desktop. If there are more do list them
specifically. Vague comments are not helpful.

Rahul
Ralf Corsepius
2007-03-19 10:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Extra - cpuspeed. mdmonitor, netfs, ntpd, portmap.
No portmap => no nis, no nfs, no rpc.
Again, This live CD is meant for a desktop. You can always enable it if
you need it.
"desktop" doesn't mean "standalone".

nfs, nis, rpc are used by desktops once they integrate into a network.
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Ralf Corsepius
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Default? - Possibly NetworkManagerDispatcher since
NetworkManager is enabled by default
Disable this. It has never worked for me anywhere and is the first
daemon I disable after FC installs.
You will have to look beyond just your personal consideration. It works
for me. Bug reports?
If there was something to report, I would have done so.

When ever I enable Network Manager, for me, absolutely NOTHING
network-related works. I.e. NetworkManager for me works SO POOR, I can't
even test nor report bugs (It is seemingly screwing up on several things
at the same time. Amongst them DHCP, NIS, DNS and network interfaces - I
even saw network device names change at run-time).
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Post by Ralf Corsepius
You are scratching on the surface of a weak spot in Fedora.
I checked all the daemons and listing the ones find I found
unnecessarily enabled for a desktop.
That's why I say "weak spot" - There is no "one-fits-all set of daemons
to enable/disable" - Each situation is different, but there is hardly
any means to customize an installation for an individual situation
during installation with Fedora.

Ralf
Rahul Sundaram
2007-03-19 11:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralf Corsepius
"desktop" doesn't mean "standalone".
For the Live CD that's mostly the use case. Live CD has very limited
space. So they have to very much targeted towards a particular set of
users. See the package list.
Post by Ralf Corsepius
nfs, nis, rpc are used by desktops once they integrate into a network.
Those folks can integrating it on the network can enable them. There is
no reason to enable them by default.
Post by Ralf Corsepius
If there was something to report, I would have done so. >
When ever I enable Network Manager, for me, absolutely NOTHING
network-related works. I.e. NetworkManager for me works SO POOR, I can't
even test nor report bugs (It is seemingly screwing up on several things
at the same time. Amongst them DHCP, NIS, DNS and network interfaces - I
even saw network device names change at run-time).
You said it doesn't work for you. If you consider that a bug then you
should file a bug report on a best effort basis. Developers can always
ask for more information if they need it to solve the problem. If there
is no bug report there cannot be even a attempt made to resolve it.
Asking it to be disabled by default just because it does not work for
you with no bug reports is not very reasonable. Sorry.
Post by Ralf Corsepius
That's why I say "weak spot" - There is no "one-fits-all set of daemons
to enable/disable" - Each situation is different, but there is hardly
any means to customize an installation for an individual situation
during installation with Fedora.
Anaconda, Kickstart, targeted and custom spins enable you to customize
Fedora for individual situations. Don't they? We aren't talking about
what daemons can be enabled for Fedora in general which then is indeed
very hard to define but about the GNOME based Live CD for Fedora 7 Test
2 release.

Rahul
Jonathan Underwood
2007-03-19 10:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Exim should probably replaced with something like esmtp or ssmtp in the
live cd. Folks wanting to install a full blown MTA can install sendmail,
postfix or email on their own.
Problem is, as far as I can tell neither of these provide local mail
delivery, so things that expect to deliver mail to root will break,
for example.
Dawid Gajownik
2007-03-19 11:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rahul Sundaram
Hardware specific - Bluetooth (along with hidd), cups (FC6 even had
smartcard daemon by default). Should check and enable on demand
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222315
Loading...